Tuesday, February 11, 2014

Does Jesus Hate Me and Homosexuals? Part 2

What follows below is another exchange that occurred in the private messaging system of Facebook.  I am not sure what sparked the first message from my Former Friend in May but this exchange in December of 2013 I do know where it originated.  I had made a public comment on Facebook about Phil Robertson from Duck Dynasty and how his first amendment rights were not being abridged by A&E.  My Former Friend responded to that comment and a public argument ensued.

Two things happened during this public argument that I think provide important context for the private message below.  First thing is the topic quickly shifted to LGBT rights in general, not just gay marriage this time and secondly I believe most objective observers would say that my Former Friend lost the public debate pretty badly.

Last but not least before the private message exchange is presented this time I will occasionally be inserting comments either to add context or just things that I think are important.  You will know the comments because they will be preceded by the word COMMENTS in capital and bold lettering.  Also like the previous post I hope you forgive the spelling and grammar errors because I am just posting the exchange as is except for removing all the names.  First comment is right here though, I do not think the speaker can define the meaning but I am parroting back something that my Former Friend said during the public debate.  Thanks everyone for reading my blog and I hope the new year is treating you well.


12/20, 10:39 am
Former Friend

Excuse me? So now I'm being accused of ineffective arguments, parsing words, and not taking responsibility? I was very clear in what I said, and I do not appreciate the barrage of personal attacks after respectfully answering your questions, acknowledging your points, and kindly bowing out - when you did not have the courtesy to do *any* of these. You seem far more interested in winning than the advancement of truth, which is why I was hesitant - and wrong - to try to exchange ideas with you in a friendly manner. Regardless of how passionate my ideas are, I insist on treating my friends with respect. Disagreeing I can handle, but public attack from a friend? Beneath you.

12/20, 10:50 am
Fat Rasputin

I do not see that as a barrage of personal attacks, that is how I see it.  If you took my comments as attacks that is your prerogative as the listener but the speaker defines meaning and they were not meant as attacks that is literally how I saw it. Also I there are several of your comments that I thought were condescening and dismissive.  I do not think that was beneath me and you are questioning my morals which is far worse than me claiming that you are not an effective arguer.  Which I still stand by, when we were having a Levitcal argument I also saw some techniques that I do not think were very good.

12/20, 10:59 am
Former Friend

When you switch from the argument to a speaker's character as a person, I'm sure you know it's an ad hominem attack; it's a logical fallacy; not a perception which you can easily Google. You lashed out pretty viciously when you had not been treated that way, and I'm sad you can't see that. Again, clearly I was wrong about you; lesson learned.

12/20, 11:07 am
Former Friend

"If I have all these things and have not LOVE, I am NOTHING." Not everyone's guiding principle, but it's mine.

12/20, 11:25 am
Fat Rasputin

I did not lash out viciously and I stand by that as objective facts.  First an ad hominem attack would be you can not be a good arguer because you are Christian, stating that I believe the arguments you are using are wrong and not effective is not an ad hominem attack.  Being told that you are wrong is not an ad hominem attack it comes pretty naturally in debate since we are now using debate terminology I think you are guilty of changing the subject and using a false premise.  I feel bullied by your love, you have come after me several times on this subject and not in a nice or respectful way, you are very dismissive and condescending when arguing with we on this topic, I let that go because I know you are passionate.  I do not believe you were respectful to me today and when you come in here and accuse me of viscous attacks that just did not happen, being told you are wrong is not a viscous attack.  I know our opinions differ greatly on this subject so I choose to not bring it up you out of your love for me have chosen to argue extensively about it twice with me and again I do think you were dismissive and condescending both times.  If you choose to start an argument with someone and let me define argument it is a discussion where two people disagree there is a good chance the other side might say you are wrong.  I really feel like you are trying to push me around here and I do not like.  I am glad you have learned your lesson, I learned it long ago don't antagonize people with different opinions than yourself and get mad when they say you are wrong.  I did not choose to have a public debate you did.  Each debate has ended just as I paint you into a corner, could it be a coincidence yes it could now if said you abandon your debates every time you are about to lose still not an ad hominem attack but would be a personal attack which the other would not.  If I use LOVE in capital letters does that prove it is my motivation and it is my motivation and again you insult me with a viscous personal attack.  I have love and it does guide me and I why I choose to argue with you when you choose to argue with me  because I know I could just walk away is that I love you and each time I hope you are ready to stop seeing homosexuality through the lens you do.

I feel like you are bullying me and I do not respond well to that.

"If I have all these things and have not LOVE, I am NOTHING." Not everyone's guiding principle, but it's mine.

Do you really think I do not have love as my guiding principle?  Are you trying to bully me with bible quotes? I do not like being bullied, I do not like being bulled.

Each time you have instigated these debates and despite what you think there have been no viscous personal attacks.  I am not persecuting you, you started the debates every time.  Do you think all my posts are put out there to bait you into debates?  If you do you are wrong.

12/20, 12:45 pm
Former Friend

Holy crap, Fat; reality just left the building in style! Do you even know what bullying means? On top of everything else you throw in the victim card and accuse 120 lb me of somehow threatening you with - what kind of harm? Beating you up? My scary words about valuing friendships? Sure. Actually I'm certain this is all me, and you clearly do not have any issues with empathy, graciousness, or having to be right all the time; I rely on your patient forgiveness. Please do write back so you may have the last word.

12/20, 12:52 pm
Fat Rasputin

Passive aggressiveness can be used to bully, I am fully aware of what the word bully means and does not necessarily have anything to do with physical violence.  I was bullied for most of my childhood and I was the largest and toughest kid at my schools.  You can use words to bully.  Thank you for letting me have the last word, funny you did not answer any of my other points and it was a long message I will take that as you agree to everything else I said except the bullying and that me can agree to disagree on so you need not wait patiently for forgiveness it is freely given now, as long as you do agree with everything else I said besides the bullying.

PS With my neurological and muscle damage it would not be hard for you to physically beat me up but I know you are not aware of that but you could bully me physically but that is not what I was talking about.

12/20, 1:47 pm
Fat Rasputin

Just so there is no confusion about words or meanings, when you say don't you know what bully means that is condescending and is a tool of passive aggressive people.

This is the definition of bully from Miriam-Webster

blustering browbeating person; especially :  one habitually cruel to others who are weaker

Does not mention violence you are wrong about the definition of bully do you consider that an attack?  When someone says you are wrong it is not an attack.  Below is the link in case you think I am lying because of my low morale character which I have demonstrated in word and deed over the time I have known you.  I don't think I have demonstrated that I have low character but I guess you must have seen it this whole time not to give me the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bully

COMMENTS:
At this point my Former Friend had gone through the public debate on Facebook and had edited some comments and then eventually deleted some comments. Below I say I think she was trying to make me look bad but with hindsight I think she was deleting just the comments that made her look bad.  I have had people lose public arguments with me badly and they have deleted all of their comments but I had never had anyone just delete their comments that made them look foolish and leave the ones that did not up.

12/20, 2:02 pm
Fat Rasputin

Some reason you deleted some of your comments and not others?  I have them all delivered in email so I still have them, I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt now but it looks like you are just trying to make me look bad.  First some edits and the deletion of comments?  Are you trying to make me look bad?  That what it seems to me.  If I am correct that deed does have me question your morals, it is sad that it seems it is coming to an end because you don't like to be told you are wrong.  So be it.  Can I trust you with my wife's power of attorney?  Can I trust you to do right by us if we are both in an accident?  These are not rhetorical questions, can I trust you?  You have escalated this at every turn, why have you deleted comments?

12/20, 2:03 pm
Former Friend

Please leave me alone now.
Please leave me alone now.

COMMENTS:

I did leave her alone for over a month since my Former Friend told me to leave her alone.  I thought I would let things settle and hopefully we could remain friends but things had changed for me.  The friendship would be different but I truly hoped it would be there.

1/27, 5:23 pm
Fat Rasputin

I wanted to thank you for everything you have done for my wife and I over the years.  That being said I wanted to let you know that there is a new trustee of our trust, new power of attorneys for both my wife and I, and new executors for our wills.  This was my decision.  Thank you again.

1/27, 7:43 pm
Former Friend

No problem. Remember we're available to help in any way you need. If this is the result of anything I've done to offend, please let me know so I may apologize; I love and value the two of you.

1/27, 8:20 pm
Fat Rasputin

I had asked some questions that you did not answer and after that I no longer felt comfortable with you being the trustee, executor, or having power of attorney for my wife or I.

1/27, 11:17 pm
Former Friend

OK that's fine. Your responses and questions did not make sense or seem particularly friendly, so as I mentioned I let you have the last word and bowed out as graciously as I could. I wish you the very best.

1/28, 2:30 am
Fat Rasputin

I fell asleep and just woke up now. Again I did want to thank you for everything you have done for my wife and I.  I did not send you the message to hurt you or to start a another exchange.  I just wanted to let you know that those things had changed in case something happened to my wife or I.  I also just realized that I had asked many questions there at the end and I think you should know that my decision was only based on the last question as to why you had deleted some of your comments and not others. I think that after our years of friendship that you deserve to know exactly why I did what I did. Sincerely thank you again for everything you have done for my wife and I also wish you the best.

1/28, 9:18 am
Former Friend

I'm fully aware of what you said 'there at the end' as I did read it the first time, though you have once again ignored that I have 1. made it clear I was finished with the discussion and finally 2. pointedly asked you to leave me alone in that regard when you STILL would not let it go. I don't want to know why you do things if it means that you keep pestering me about a closed subject, Fat. Please consider me soundly informed, and the topic finally, completely, eternally CLOSED. If you continue to harass me on this for any reason after my many requests for peace, I will block you.

COMMENTS:

At this point I did not know what to make of this.  I called my wife at work and cried and begged and hoped that she had some solution that would allow us all to stay friends.  The Former Friend had asked me to leave her alone and I had no contact with her for over a month and then she asks me if she has done anything to offend, at least that is what I thought when my Former Friend says this "If this is the result of anything I've done to offend, please let me know so I may apologize; I love and value the two of you."  At that point I really thought we were going to reconcile, I thought it was an opening and I was wrong.

After speaking with my wife and trying to understand her last message it became apparent to me I needed to unfriend and block my Former Friend not just on Facebook but in life.  She said she was going to block me for harassing her.  Just to clarify I had no other contact with her other than these Facebook exchanges.  When she asked me to leave her alone I did so for over a month, I only brought up the deleting of comments because I sincerely thought she was asking why I had been offended.  I know I am repeating myself but this was a shock to my system.  I was also scared because her last response just made no sense to me and I did not know what to expect next and it was frightening.

My Former Friend had been a rock in me and my wife's lives for over a long time.  She had been more generous than any friend had the right to ask.  She gave of her time, her family, and her love and maybe I was more frightened about not having her in my life than of anything she would do.  Even writing this now I am still tearing up a bit, I really have no idea what happened.

I occasionally complain about dying but if we could strip back the hyperbole for a moment my wife and I had concrete plans for the likely event that I would die long before my wife.  There are various practical financial things that are part of the plan but there were emotional plans as well.  My wife loves me a great deal and when I die both of us think she will be very upset, more so than the regular grieving spouse.  Now before any gets up in arms she will be more upset not because she loves me more than any one else loves their spouse but because she is also so sensitive and does not have much family left outside of me.  When I died my wife was going to live with my Former Friend until she would be able to be on her own again. At this point I am crying because our rock is gone and I still do not know why.